what's with all these genres?!?

[grindfanboy]

i don't understand the difference between grindcore, goregrind and powerviolence i don't understand why they are all so arguable! they are all 'grind' one way or another! another thing, why does everyone say 'Brutal Death Metal'? i think you mean Death Metal, and death metal is thrash influenced

[RelentlessOblivion]

Grindcore is the overarching subgenre. Goregrind and powerviolence are movements therein so far as I understand it. The distinction exists to further categorise bands of a certain ilk. It is for that same reason that distinctions within death metal are made. Brutal death metal is best exemplified by Nile, Element and Kronos (in my collection anyway). The assertion that death metal is merely an extension of thrash may have been apt in the developmental stage of the genre but it has become so broad now as to render this rationale null and void.

[grindfanboy]

i've listened to nile and those other bands, they're just plain death metal a death metal band can use the blast beat and still be thrash influenced

[Midi]

a death metal band can use the blast beat and still be thrash influenced

I fail to see your point here?

[grindfanboy]

well, 1st off, solos are regular, 2nd point, songs are as technical as thrash songs, and 3rd thing, every death metal band (past and present) is infleunced by Slayer and other thrash bands

[BlutAusNerd]

i don't understand the difference between grindcore, goregrind and powerviolence i don't understand why they are all so arguable! they are all 'grind' one way or another! another thing, why does everyone say 'Brutal Death Metal'? i think you mean Death Metal, and death metal is thrash influenced

In the 80's, all kinds of microgenres were emerging that were all rooted in hardcore punk, thus mostly all ending in -core, i.e. Thrashcore, blipcore, noisecore, metalcore, crustcore, etc... I believe that the creation of the term grindcore is most often credited to Oscar Garcia of Terrorizer/Nausea, because he felt that it felt "grindy". Goregrind is a style of grindcore pioneered by Carcass, which is mostly distinct from grindcore because of focusing on gory lyrical themes, but musically it also happens to be both more nasty sounding and more melodic than grindcore, in true Carcass fashion. Grindcore lyrics tend to focus on social and political issues, and is more overtly anarcho punk/crust influenced, whereas Carcass were heading in more of a death metal direction. You could still call goregrind bands grindcore bands, it's a much more narrow distinction than the distinction between actually genres. Powerviolenence is distinct for combining hardcore and grindcore with slow sludge metal riffs in a very jarring fashion. If all that you're doing is focusing on the speed of each genre, differentiation may be difficult, but you can hear a big difference when you listen to composition and direction. For some references, check out Napalm Death's From Enslavement to Obliteration (grindcore), Carcass' Symphonies of Sickness (goregrind), and anything from Man Is the Bastard (powerviolence), and don't just listen to blastbeats, listen to everything else that is going on in the music. As far as death metal goes, there is also a pretty large difference between standard death metal and brutal death metal. In my last example, goregrind is also still grindcore, brutal death metal is still death metal, but not all death metal bands are brutal death metal. Brutal death metal removes many of the more atmospheric and melodic tendencies of death metal to focus on brutality, taking much of what death metal began as and pushing it to the extreme. Brutal death metal mostly tends to follow the model set forth by Suffocation, so listening to the differences between Suffocation and a band like Entombed would be a good exercise in differentiation. As far as death metal's roots, it emerged from thrash metal, black metal, and hardcore/crust/d-beat, but that does not make it merely an extension of any one of those genres. It is definitely a different animal altogether, though there are plenty of death metal bands that retain lots of characteristics of those sound, or recombine with those sounds altogether. For some references, check out Morbid Angel (death metal), Suffocation (brutal death metal), Ripping Corpse (death/thrash), Order From Chaos (death/black metal), Black Breath (death metal/d-beat), and Stormcrow (death metal/crust).

[BlutAusNerd]

well' date=' 1st off, solos are regular, 2nd point, songs are as technical as thrash songs, and 3rd thing, every death metal band (past and present) is infleunced by Slayer and other thrash bands[/quote'] If you want to trace it back that way, then every metal band in history are just varying degrees of extreme blues/rock.

[Midi]

In the 80's, all kinds of microgenres were emerging that were all rooted in hardcore punk, thus mostly all ending in -core, i.e. Thrashcore, blipcore, noisecore, metalcore, crustcore, etc... I believe that the creation of the term grindcore is most often credited to Oscar Garcia of Terrorizer/Nausea, because he felt that it felt "grindy". Goregrind is a style of grindcore pioneered by Carcass, which is mostly distinct from grindcore because of focusing on gory lyrical themes, but musically it also happens to be both more nasty sounding and more melodic than grindcore, in true Carcass fashion. Grindcore lyrics tend to focus on social and political issues, and is more overtly anarcho punk/crust influenced, whereas Carcass were heading in more of a death metal direction. You could still call goregrind bands grindcore bands, it's a much more narrow distinction than the distinction between actually genres. Powerviolenence is distinct for combining hardcore and grindcore with slow sludge metal riffs in a very jarring fashion. If all that you're doing is focusing on the speed of each genre, differentiation may be difficult, but you can hear a big difference when you listen to composition and direction. For some references, check out Napalm Death's From Enslavement to Obliteration (grindcore), Carcass' Symphonies of Sickness (goregrind), and anything from Man Is the Bastard (powerviolence), and don't just listen to blastbeats, listen to everything else that is going on in the music. As far as death metal goes, there is also a pretty large difference between standard death metal and brutal death metal. In my last example, goregrind is also still grindcore, brutal death metal is still death metal, but not all death metal bands are brutal death metal. Brutal death metal removes many of the more atmospheric and melodic tendencies of death metal to focus on brutality, taking much of what death metal began as and pushing it to the extreme. Brutal death metal mostly tends to follow the model set forth by Suffocation, so listening to the differences between Suffocation and a band like Entombed would be a good exercise in differentiation. As far as death metal's roots, it emerged from thrash metal, black metal, and hardcore/crust/d-beat, but that does not make it merely an extension of any one of those genres. It is definitely a different animal altogether, though there are plenty of death metal bands that retain lots of characteristics of those sound, or recombine with those sounds altogether. For some references, check out Morbid Angel (death metal), Suffocation (brutal death metal), Ripping Corpse (death/thrash), Order From Chaos (death/black metal), Black Breath (death metal/d-beat), and Stormcrow (death metal/crust).

Black Breath sounds pretty awesome. Could you recommend some essential bands within their sound?

[mindy6158]

I just call metal; metal....I dont give a shit anymore about the genres, it is getting ridiculous. heh

[JBaker]

I just call metal; metal....I dont give a shit anymore about the genres' date=' it is getting ridiculous. heh[/quote']I think the problem with that is you essentially end up putting Judas Priest, Tool, Deicide, Pantera and Ministry all in the same genre. This might not be a problem for you, but imagine someone new to metal is really getting into Pantera and wants you to recommend 'similar stuff'; would it be practical to just direct them towards 'metal'? Not really; you'd be better to reference bands who have a similar sound, and as long as we're talking about bands with a similar sound, I think it's helpful to give that sound a label for ease of describing, preferably one that has some relevance to the sound in question e.g. groove metal for Pantera.

[mindy6158]

I think the problem with that is you essentially end up putting Judas Priest' date=' Tool, Deicide, Pantera and Ministry all in the same genre. This might not be a problem for you, but imagine someone new to metal is really getting into Pantera and wants you to recommend 'similar stuff'; would it be practical to just direct them towards 'metal'? Not really; you'd be better to reference bands who have a similar sound, and as long as we're talking about bands with a similar sound, I think it's helpful to give that sound a label for ease of describing, preferably one that has some relevance to the sound in question e.g. groove metal for Pantera.[/quote'] Nope, whenever anyone has ever asked me to recommend bands, I always give...well....the band names, not the genre. I mean there are times obviously I will say "death metal" or "groove metal" and the actual genre but I never delve into the mini subgenres OF the subgenres... The only one I really WILL say is progressive death metal, and that is only because it happens to be my ultimate favorite. Am I confusing? I do not know what I am trying to say right now. ha

[BlutAusNerd]

Black Breath sounds pretty awesome. Could you recommend some essential bands within their sound?

Black Breath on Sentenced to Life sound a lot like Dismember and Entombed to me. There are/were lots of death metal bands to play d-beats and have punky sections in their music, and there has been a bit of a resurgence in that lately with bands like Bones and Bastard Priest. Some of my favorites include Autopsy, Master/Death Strike, Dismember, Entombed, Furbowl, Gorefest, Undead Creep, etc...

[BlutAusNerd]

Nope' date=' whenever anyone has ever asked me to recommend bands, I always give...well....the band names, not the genre. I mean there are times obviously I will say "death metal" or "groove metal" and the actual genre but I never delve into the mini subgenres OF the subgenres... The only one I really WILL say is progressive death metal, and that is only because it happens to be my ultimate favorite. Am I confusing? I do not know what I am trying to say right now. ha[/quote'] How is using microgenres any different? What is the difference between recommending bands that sound like Incantation, or bands that embody that cavernous death metal sound that they're known for? It comes out to being the same, and when giving recommendations, I'll often use a combination of the two sides, but you and JBaker are both right in the end. Genres don't speak to quality, and they're used incorrectly by closed-minded idiots to be exclusive to something that doesn't fit exactly within their norm, but it can be just as helpful as it can be irritating/arbitrary.

[mindy6158]

That is kind of what I was trying to say, heh. It just gives me a headache to think of every single subgenre of metal. Also, nothing annoys me more than people who are into metal saying one genre is not "metal" simply because they dislike it. I believe I have mentioned that before. But yes ultimately I will use the terms "death metal, black metal, alternative metal," because they are easy to know and understand, I am not about to start getting into the terms "grindcore, sludge, avant garde, etc etc....this is getting into the ridiculous realm of things for me. You do not have to agree, my opinion is hard to sway. heh Also....I generally do not try calling bands by their genres anymore because either A) They have many genres, rarely do I see bands anymore that is just one distinct genre, and I dont feel like hearing from the metal nazis about how "you dummbb THIS ISNT BLACK METAL WWAAHHH." Sorry about my novel:D

[BlutAusNerd]

That is kind of what I was trying to say, heh. It just gives me a headache to think of every single subgenre of metal. Also, nothing annoys me more than people who are into metal saying one genre is not "metal" simply because they dislike it. I believe I have mentioned that before. But yes ultimately I will use the terms "death metal, black metal, alternative metal," because they are easy to know and understand, I am not about to start getting into the terms "grindcore, sludge, avant garde, etc etc....this is getting into the ridiculous realm of things for me. You do not have to agree, my opinion is hard to sway. heh Also....I generally do not try calling bands by their genres anymore because either A) They have many genres, rarely do I see bands anymore that is just one distinct genre, and I dont feel like hearing from the metal nazis about how "you dummbb THIS ISNT BLACK METAL WWAAHHH." Sorry about my novel:D

There really aren't that many subgenres of metal to keep track of, but as you said, there is a lot of variety within each, and a lot of crossover with plenty of bands. I get annoyed by people excluding bands or genres from metaldom because they don't like them as well, but there are plenty of cases of people trying to include bands that just don't belong. Again, that doesn't speak to the quality of any of those bands, as a subjective observation like how much you enjoy a band, and a more objective observation like where a band's sound falls are two very different things. I get just as annoyed by people telling me that Swans is grindcore as people stating that The Black Dahlia Murder is death metal because they just aren't, the difference being that I love Swans and grindcore. Both may have had some influence on or from that genre, but that's no reason to include them, just as I don't call Pink Floyd metal, despite inspiring countless metal bands. I'm surprised that labels like sludge, avant-garde, and grindcore have never crossed your radar, as I'm sure you've at least heard of some of the bigger bands in each genre, like Crowbar, Gorguts, or Napalm Death respectively.

[deathstorm]

another thing music stores always labled some bands in other metal genre like for example slayer they have them listed as a black metal thrash metal and death metal i like sub genre idea to this way is to separte them from rest of it

[mindy6158]

There really aren't that many subgenres of metal to keep track of' date=' but as you said, there is a lot of variety within each, and a lot of crossover with plenty of bands. I get annoyed by people excluding bands or genres from metaldom because they don't like them as well, but there are plenty of cases of people trying to include bands that just don't belong. Again, that doesn't speak to the quality of any of those bands, as a subjective observation like how much you enjoy a band, and a more objective observation like where a band's sound falls are two very different things. I get just as annoyed by people telling me that Swans is grindcore as people stating that The Black Dahlia Murder is death metal because they just aren't, the difference being that I love Swans and grindcore. Both may have had some influence on or from that genre, but that's no reason to include them, just as I don't call Pink Floyd metal, despite inspiring countless metal bands. I'm surprised that labels like sludge, avant-garde, and grindcore have never crossed your radar, as I'm sure you've at least heard of some of the bigger bands in each genre, like Crowbar, Gorguts, or Napalm Death respectively.[/quote'] I'm not saying I don't like bands in those genres..just that I'm not going to pretend I know what bands are part of those. I've heard however that iceni's fave iwresteledabearonce is "avant garde."

[deathstorm]

i wonder if mindy likes fozzy

[mindy6158]

Not really my thing, although I do like quite a bit of alternative metal, like flyleaf, pulse ultra, new katatonia, cold, deftones, nothingface.

[RelentlessOblivion]

The crossover between genres catches me out at times. Like thinking there was some thrash in the sound of Sadistik Exekution's debut, initially mislabelling Sepultura and Meshuggah, and so on. While we're on the subject I'm still trying to work out which elements of Mercyful Fate and their sound qualify them as black metal. They remain a plain old heavy metal band to me.

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

The crossover between genres catches me out at times. Like thinking there was some thrash in the sound of Sadistik Exekution's debut, initially mislabelling Sepultura and Meshuggah, and so on. While we're on the subject I'm still trying to work out which elements of Mercyful Fate and their sound qualify them as black metal. They remain a plain old heavy metal band to me.

They're first wave black metal. None of the first wave bands other than Bathory sound that much like modern black metal. It was more the imagery - Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Mercyful Fate, Venom - they were influential in that they were extreme (for the time), and had satanic imagery and lyrics.

[RelentlessOblivion]

I've never had any trouble with the other first wave bands. Venom, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost and the like sound black metal but you're right the image of Mercyful Fate coupled with the overall theme of their music is very much early black metal. Their sound is radically different to the aforementioned bands however and that is what throws me.

[Os Abysmi Vel Daath]

I've never had any trouble with the other first wave bands. Venom' date=' Hellhammer/Celtic Frost and the like sound black metal but you're right the image of Mercyful Fate coupled with the overall theme of their music is very much early black metal. Their sound is radically different to the aforementioned bands however and that is what throws me.[/quote'] Yeah it's mostly image. The only black metal musician I've heard saying he was musically influenced by Mercyful Fate (and King Diamond's solo stuff as well) is Ihsahn from Emperor, and you can hear that in some of the Emperor material when he does that super high falsetto occasionally (as well as on his first solo album). It's a total King rip.

[BlutAusNerd]

It took me a while to get there as well, and it didn't happen until I discovered more bands that didn't follow the Scandinavian black metal template. That was also around the time that I started reverting my mindset, realizing that I was thinking about genre lines in a completely fucked up way. I was using the current keyboard warrior basement troll model of judging classics based on modern works, when it should be the other way around. These jerkoffs are the same ones that try to disqualify bands like Venom, Possessed, and Deep Purple from black metal, death metal, and heavy metal respectively because they don't sound like Wolves in the Throne Room, Spawn of Possession, or Holy Grail. Well, of course they don't, they started those sounds decades before, and it would take a lot of evolution to get to that point. Similarly, many early progenitors of very styles of metal aren't followed as closely as others, despite being a part of the same movement. For example, a lot of Scandinavian black metal fans may discount Sodom's place in black metal history because the bands that they enjoy took more influence from Bathory, but bands bands like Beherit, Sarcofago, and Archgoat drew much more heavily from the likes of Sodom. I hear a ton of Mercyful Fate in Greek, Italian, and Czech black metal, and also in bands like Ophthalamia. Or, you could just listen to that opening riff from Doomed By the Living Dead if you're not convinced...

[RelentlessOblivion]

However you classify them Mercyful Fate are an awesome band. Perhaps their black metal leanings will be more obvious if I go back to their debut.